I was having a discussion with some other students over lunch at the seminary today. After a little while, the topic turned to politics as one of them is an active Ron Paul fan, even to the point that he passes out the buttons and DVDs.
It was a fun conversation, that though there were many varying opinions, never turned argumentative, though heat was present.
Ultimately, I wondered the answer to this question:
As Christians, are we to evaluate the candidates in a way to see who we think might make the best leader in line with our beliefs, the best leader for the country at the time, or the leader who would lead to the accomplishments of God's plans?
My instinctive (and I believe correct) answer is that Christians must base their vote on which candidate they think will best carry out God's plans for this world. This was not as fun to realize, as since America isn't the chosen country (regardless of what your church or the media may tell you), the President who best carries out God's plans might also then have to be the same President that does the worst things to move America forward.
It is possible, that God's main agenda in this world isn't moving America to being a more stable, comfortable, friendly place to live.
Thursday, January 31, 2008
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13 comments:
This may be something you can blog about again but since you asked if we should vote for the best leader for the country at this time or the leader who would lead to God's plans, how does anyone know what is God's plan for this country at this time? There sure are differing opinions between clergy so I don't think we can expect a president to know how to carry out God's plan. We can expect him to be a follower and to ask for God's help in his decision making. We need to look at his character and see if his life decisions have been ones that we would have expected a follower to make. Of course, where I am saying "his" can also be "her."
Nate I disagree with you.
I believe we elect the best leader for the country at the time.
We are not electing a candidate to run our church....i mean our country. We are selecting an individual who can and will pave the way for the 21st century America.
It is my belief, out of the three options you suggested, that God can move in any one of those options. So whether we think we need the best leader in line with our beliefs, or the best leader for the country at the time, or the leader who would lead to the accomplishments of God's plans is irrelevant because no matter what God is still going to move.
This is why a Christian should not get all freaked out if a "liberal" gets elected. Paul sets up this god and government hierarchy pretty well-- submit to God, then submit to government. (Romans 13)
Bottom line: We not be worried about the leader of this country, (which still means we still continue to pray for him or her) but rather be worried about following the commandments of Jesus.
So whoever gets elected, God will use. Who knows maybe God could even use the Mormon or a women?
mdk,
There sure are differing opinions between clergy so I don't think we can expect a president to know how to carry out God's plan.
Interesting comment here. What if God just moved if the leader still did not know how to follow God's plan? This also raises the question of: Do we need to know exactly what to ask for in order for God to move? Can God just move without any human prompting?
I think this is the beauty of praying in tongues. Essentially one is speaking a unknown prayer that is completely lifted up to God. One may not know what he or she is saying, but God definitely acknowledges the prayer. Tongues-- the glossa--enables one to just speak out an unknown thought.
NIV Acts 2:4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues {4 Or languages; also in verse 11} as the Spirit enabled them.
cheers my fellow blogger pals,
jeremy
I'm not trying to say that Christians need to elect the most Christian person to office.
I agree Jeremy, that God can move through whomever becomes President. I wouldn't ever want to be ther person to limit God's power. In fact, if I had to vote today, i'd be leaning towards a "liberal" candidate because I do they think they would lead America the best.
I fully support that we elect our President based on their qualities to be President, not their qualites to be Pastor. That isn't the argument i'm making either.
What i'm arguing, is that maybe God wants to use leaders in ways that affect more than just our country. I understand that these things are nearly impossible to evaluate, i'm just arguing that in theory, a Christian should vote based on who will best lead in a way that coincides with God's plans for this time.
That might mean a leader whose leadership results in better moral laws for America, just as it might be a leader who works on social justice and education issues. It might also be a leader who causes the decline of America as the world superpower.
I'm not arguing against America, I'm not even arguing against any particular candidates, I just want to place the priority of God's plans above the priority of my plans. In my plans, its easy for me to pick who I'd vote for (A liberal at this moment), but in God's plans, I don't know who will best fit the current plans.
I agree with Jeremy, that ultimately I must submit to the government, pray for them, and watch as God uses whoever is in that position.
I ultimately place no hope in my future or the future of any people I know in the future President of the U.S.
Nate,
Right on and amen!
You are right about this: What i'm arguing, is that maybe God wants to use leaders in ways that affect more than just our country.
But what ways, namely eduction, tax
laws, poverty, social justice,and economy; takes priority? So in a sense, there needs to be an interpretation of what the God plans are. If God's plan are to solely focus on social justice and education then we would vote a particular way. But, who is discerning God's plans?
I am still not sure what you mean by this:
"a Christian should vote based on who will best lead in a way that coincides with God's plans for this time."
My question is: Who is determining what God's plan are? And is that the job of the President?
There are hundreds of perspectives of what God's plans are. "Lets focus on heath care. No lets focus on job security."
I am having a hard time digesting who is discerning God's plans for the nation? And maybe you are arguing from more of an ambiguous state and leaving God's plans open and ambiguous; and I am trying to read too much into this.
What tears me a part, is that as a registered voter, I need to discern for myself what God's plans are. From my discerning will determine how I am voting. In the 2008 election should I vote for the universal health care system? I do not know??? Should I trust that what I am discerning from God, is His plans?
Maybe I quit worrying about it and just walk by faith, not by my logic, theology, sight, and/or thoughts.
My question is: Who is determining what God's plan are? And is that the job of the President?
I get to answer the easy way. God determines his plans, and no, that is not the job of the President.
At this point, i'm still talking "ambiguosly" (as you put it) about how we think about who we vote for.
You and I might ultimately prioritize differently things like health care, taxes, social justice, ect... but I hope we both evaluate them first on Kingdom principles, not first on American, nor selfish principles.
Some evangelical circles would be satisfied with your answer, while some would be extremely frustrated.
Great post!
Out of curiosity what are Kingdom principles in your perspective?
Mine are:
1) Social Justice
2) poverty
3) health care
4) education
5) environment
How are these three choices essentially different? I struggle to think of a situation where I would not try to identify the leader who most-aligns with my personal beliefs, which would naturally encompass my thoughts on what is best for our country and what I may believe to be God's plan.
However, postulating what is best for the country or what is in God's plan seems like an exercise in arrogance. Don't get me wrong, we all do it to some extent. We all have assumptions about what government's role should be in this country, what America should look like, and how we should get to that end; all thoughts that cannot be extracted from our own personal filters, values, and beliefs.
Since it is impossible to ascertain every possible situation the future leaders of our country will face, or to have all of the information to review that they receive, does it not make sense to select leaders who will make decisions from a similar value-base as ours?
This is not the same as electing a leader who we believe would make all the same choices as us in given situations, but rather someone who is grounded in similar foundational beliefs, including humbling themselves to seek God's will in their work.
Anonymous
Nicely put. You are right about the assertion of arrogance. It is very difficult to depart from your own personal filter. Then, somehow your own personal filter bleeds on to what God's apparent plan is.
again you are right in your view that there are no differences in those three options.
I think you need to come out of hiding and identify yourself. A post that well articulated need a personal identification.
"How are these three choices essentially different? I struggle to think of a situation where I would not try to identify the leader who most-aligns with my personal beliefs, which would naturally encompass my thoughts on what is best for our country and what I may believe to be God's plan."
I'll try my best to give my thoughts on this question.
I agree, that ultimately, I assume my vote will fulfill all three of these options. The difference I see, is which one we place the most priority on. If I decide that my values on issues like abortion or homosexual marraige are most important, then I have aligned God's plan and what is best for the country under those values.
Similarly, if I first try to aim to figure out what is best for this country, I then align my values and God's plans under that analysis.
My goal, ideally, is to evaluate through the lens of God's desire, and then cast the vote that would also be the best value vote, and the best for our country, though this evaluation of best for our country may look largely different than if I evaluated the best for our country solely from my perspective.
Would it be arrogant to say I could figure out God's plans, what is best for our country, or the candidate that would best find these things?
Yes, I believe it would. Thus I think two people, I'll use myself and Jeremy for example, could both try to evaluate with the same priority (God's plans above any others) and order issues and candidates with different priorities.
Every American Christian voting for the same candidate is not my goal. Instead, I wish every American Christian would evaluate their life, their country, their future President, in fact every decision they make, through the lens of God's plans. This isn't easy, we won't be perfect, but I believe the fact of the matter is, many Christians today (too often myself included) enjoy evaluating things for their own benefit and making decisions which improve their life outside of reliance on God.
"Out of curiosity what are Kingdom principles in your perspective?"
I haven't yet taken the time to prioritize these things, nor even identify them all. I would be curious to see what factions of education, you see as fitting in with Kingdom Principles.
I'm not challenging that conclusion, just wondering how it might fit in with a Kingdom described in a set of Scriptures that appear very vocal on your other 4 issues, and relatively silent on the issue of education.
Good question though, i'll have to begin evaluating these issues as well to figure out my list.
Question of clarification for you... Is your list as given in priority order, like "Social Justice" being the most important or obvious, or just a list in order that you thought of them?
Yes indeed, good old education as a Kingdom value. How I am going to argue education as a Kingdom value is a perfect example how my personal filter can distort God's actual plans. However I do not know better until the truth is revealed to me.
My central thesis is that we as dual citizens (kingdom of God/Kingdom of this world) need to pay close attention to our public education system.
Assumptions//
1) Unfortunately there was no structural or formal educational system in 1st century Palestine. One's training came from their father or Rabbi. However if one lived in Rome, he or she (if they came from wealth) had the opportunity to essentially have a mentor in their particular field. There were not that many jobs back in 1st Palestine. For example, shepard, doctor, tax collector, farmer, and work for the Roman government. My point is that our 1st century context does not paint an accurate description of what our 21st America context represents.
2) There are no clear verses that communicate Jesus loves education.
3) I am assuming public school is a best system to educate our children. Public schools has the experts in their content and in teaching methodologies. The state government has strict credentialing programs to ensure a teacher is qualified.
4) I think a child's spiritual grow is directly linked to their intellectual grow.
Theology//
Jesus loves children. Mark 10 beautifully illustrates how Jesus responds to children. Mark 10:14 14 When Jesus saw this (disciples rebuking the children), he was indignant. (It is funny; Jesus only really gets pissed when He is really bothered) He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
Jesus was pissed off that people were hindering the children. Jesus wants to bless, not hinder them.
Implications//
I think we can take this Mark 10 passage and extrapolate the truth of: Jesus wants children to be nurtured, blessed, loved, and care for.
So how does this apply to our context?
Well where do our children spend 8 hours of their day: Monday - Friday? School. Our public school system is the starting block to how kids can make it in the world. The school and the church are the learning grounds in learning and experiencing content either spiritual or academics. If our school systems suck, we are doing a dis-service to our children.
This is why I feel so strongly that public school systems need to have enough resources, money, staff support, and facilities in order to effectively educate the future of america. Now home school versus public school is a whole different conversation. : )
Cheers
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